[seasonalskier]

But just because you don't like the direction a car is going doesn't mean its less of a car. IE: Rolls Royce's were/are slow and heavy, but they have the tech and luxury to be considered a very, very luxurious car. Sure they cost more than most peoples lives are valued at but still it proves my point. A car does not have to be fast and handle like its on rails to be a luxury vehicle.

 

[ischn23]

[quote author=Seasonalskier link=topic=200983.msg4149998#msg4149998 date=1321645958]
But just because you don't like the direction a car is going doesn't mean its less of a car. IE: Rolls Royce's were/are slow and heavy, but they have the tech and luxury to be considered a very, very luxurious car. Sure they cost more than most peoples lives are valued at but still it proves my point. A car does not have to be fast and handle like its on rails to be a luxury vehicle.
[/quote]
+1... that's the difference between the auto classifications luxury and sport luxury. I really don't think Lincoln was trying to go for a true sport luxury, even with the Ecoboost.. Ford wouldn't completely half-ass their luxury brand, especially after discontinuing Mercury (which was partially done so Lincoln could be improved). Ford took some time to get their own cars right, so it may also take time for Lincoln to get theirs right. They're just in an awkward transition period and they're doing what they can; eventually, they will produce something spectacular to slap the competition right in the face, sort of like Cadillac did with the current model CTS/CTS-V (feels weird to say that because I'm not much of a GM fan at all, but in reality it's true). Call me optimistic...

EDIT:
Just wanted to add that Lincoln has been working with former CTS designer Max Wolff. He says his task is to restore Lincoln to a "distinctive and credible" luxury brand. Along with the new technologies, Lincoln Drive Control has been introduced (with sport mode and comfort mode) which adjusts various parameters around the car to compensate for the driver's selection. Also introduced is the Continuously Controlled Damping system which gives a smoother ride by reducing body roll. So, Lincoln actually is focusing on the real technologies, not just infotainment systems.. It will just take time for all of their new ideas to be developed and integrated into the brand.

 

[seasonalskier]

[quote author=ischn23 link=topic=200983.msg4150017#msg4150017 date=1321648117]
sort of like Cadillac did with the current model CTS/CTS-V
[/quote]
SO TRUE

 

[biggee72]

Vw / audi was an example of badge engineering. The difference is, VW had a premium product and made audi even more so. Ford is simply taking a rental car and changing the badge and raising the price. VW has now made thier cars cheaper while making audis more expensive as to not confuse their brand. Either way, you can agree or not. What it comes down to..a car is worth what people are willing to pay. Id drive a 35k a4 over a 50k lincoln if cost was no object. Looks like a lot of the rest of the world agrees.

 

[fatabbot]

[quote author=Seasonalskier link=topic=200983.msg4149998#msg4149998 date=1321645958]
But just because you don't like the direction a car is going doesn't mean its less of a car.
[/quote]

In the end, the only thing that really matters is what the general public thinks. Apparently, most car buyers think like I do. Hence Lincoln's horrid sales.

 

[fatabbot]

[quote author=ischn23 link=topic=200983.msg4150017#msg4150017 date=1321648117]
+1... that's the difference between the auto classifications luxury and sport luxury. I really don't think Lincoln was trying to go for a true sport luxury, even with the Ecoboost..
[/quote]

The problem with this approach is that it mainly focuses on a shrinking segment of the population (i.e. baby boomers and older). The Lexus ES rules the roost for these buyers, but even Lexus has realized that, while they make decent customers now, geriatrics won't always be there. What the most successful luxury marques have done is start to build brand loyalty amongst younger drivers. So while you guys can say that a car doesn't have to perform or ride on rails, it would certainly help their image to have at least one model that could go toe to toe with the competition.

[quote author=ischn23 link=topic=200983.msg4150017#msg4150017 date=1321648117]
They're just in an awkward transition period and they're doing what they can; eventually, they will produce something spectacular to slap the competition right in the face, sort of like Cadillac did with the current model CTS/CTS-V (feels weird to say that because I'm not much of a GM fan at all, but in reality it's true). Call me optimistic...
[/quote]

Hope you're right

 

[ischn23]

[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=200983.msg4150141#msg4150141 date=1321670254]
it would certainly help their image to have at least one model that could go toe to toe with the competition.
[/quote]
This is true. Targeting a more youthful crowd would definitely help.. Some examples: Although Cadillac has the V-lineup along with the CTS coupe, they're developing the ATS to go up against the 3-series, etc; this will most likely have a sport model. Lately, Buick has been all about younger consumers; i.e., the Regal GS, and the Verano will be coming out soon with a turbo option. I don't have to mention their European competitors, because most of them have obviously been doing it right for a long time.

Just a few interesting numbers... As of July 2010, the average Buick buyer in the US was 65. In China, where the Verano has already been on sale as the Excelle, the average Buick buyer was 28.

I would love to see some sportier Lincoln models in the near future. Take the MKZ, give it an updated beefy Ecoboost, a few sport mods, and please some more aggressive styling... Then put it in my garage .

 

[bondservant]

If the Taurus SHO came out instead as a MK-SHO, this conversation would be going a lot different. Class and performance. I've driven the SHO. Belive me, its all that and a bag of cow chips...

 

[Canadian_LX]

[quote author=bondservant link=topic=200983.msg4150162#msg4150162 date=1321675946]
If the Taurus SHO came out instead as a MK-SHO, this conversation would be going a lot different. Class and performance. I've driven the SHO. Belive me, its all that and a bag of cow chips...
[/quote]
I agree, although unfortunately I've never driven one

Lets also not forget too that the Fusion Sport is just a MKZ with less goodies. Same motor/drivetrain so in reality the MKZ is not a "glorified ford" but the sport is an "underglorified" Lincoln since Lincoln has been using that combo since 2007. If there was no Fusion Sport the MKZ would have a completely different aura about it.

 

[fatabbot]

[quote author=bondservant link=topic=200983.msg4150162#msg4150162 date=1321675946]
If the Taurus SHO came out instead as a MK-SHO, this conversation would be going a lot different. Class and performance. I've driven the SHO. Belive me, its all that and a bag of cow chips...
[/quote]

I don't think that would actually do anything at all. Why? The SHO doesn't handle or brake all that great and you can already get the Ecoboost in the MKS. Second, it would be too expensive. What Lincoln needs is a more enticing entry model than the MKZ. Start at the bottom if you're aiming for a younger target.

 

[bondservant]

Well, considering we are talking about inticing a younger buyer, I don't think Ford is trying to do that thru the Lincoln Badge. Nor does Cadi with there CTS. Heavy, and Expensive, powerful, classy. Obviously targeting a mature, possibly more successful buyer. How many 25 or under people do you "know" that own a CTSV?

 

[biggee72]

Where do you get 25 or under from? I would assume lincoln is working their way down from 65+.

 

[Canadian_LX]

The MKZ target is still late 20's early 30's. The only reason the crappy CTS gets as much attention as it does is because of the media.

It's an over glorified piece of shit. A co-worker bought an 06 and the car had a MANUAL power seat... seriously? In a caddy?? Not only that, the interior was full of cheap plastic just like the rest of GM's products, the car is certainly nothing special at all. A close friend of mine traded in his 04 for an 08 Magnum and he said the Magnum was 10x the car for far less price.

Again, because it's a caddy tho, it means you're a baller.

 

[biggee72]

[quote author=Canadian_LX link=topic=200983.msg4150398#msg4150398 date=1321752306]
The MKZ target is still late 20's early 30's. The only reason the crappy CTS gets as much attention as it does is because of the media.

It's an over glorified piece of shit. A co-worker bought an 06 and the car had a MANUAL power seat... seriously? In a caddy?? Not only that, the interior was full of cheap plastic just like the rest of GM's products, the car is certainly nothing special at all. A close friend of mine traded in his 04 for an 08 Magnum and he said the Magnum was 10x the car for far less price.

Again, because it's a caddy tho, it means you're a baller.
[/quote]

Its also rwd and better looking. Two things that are imporant. Either way we werent discussing the 06 model. If we are we can compare the zephyr and fusion directly because there no NO difference beween the two. Put a 2012 cts v. An mkz and youll easily see what makes the caddy more desirable. Both the lincoln and cadillac may also be more reliable than euro or japanese luxury cars but they still dont compare. And your friend got a magnum. You want to talk about apiece of shit....

 

[bbf2530]

Hi gang. :wavey: Yikes!!! :ughhug:

Since I have never been the type to justify my own choices by tearing down what others may like, I am not going to tear the Cadillac down. After all, there is enough room in the automotive world for differing tastes. But gee guys, let's keep the comparisons based on some semblance of reality: Base price 2012 CTS-V sedan - MSRP $63,215. Base price 2012 Lincoln MKZ - MSRP $34,755. That is a price difference of over $28,400! :eek4:

Not picking on anyone in particular, since there is enough silliness and random opinion put forth as fact in this thread to go around, but let's not start comparing a CTS-V and MKZ as though they are in the same price class. For ~$28,400 more (an ~81% price increase), it sure as hell should be better. :bash:

Can we give a shot at a more realistic comparison? Go to the Lincoln and Cadillac websites and compare the base MKZ to the base CTS sedan in powertrain, price and features. Even a base CTS sedan is over $1,000 more at $35,915 and has less standard equipment than an MKZ. Styling preferences? Well, as always "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", which is why I won't trash the Caddy or those who prefer it. Hey, although I prefer the MKZ to the CTS, I can see how some people would prefer the CTS. Why not? What I or someone else likes to drive does not make my private parts any smaller or bigger :lmao: and does not make someone else or me wrong/stupid/idiotic etc. for their choice. Cars are a matter of personal preference, taste etc., like the choices between beer/wine/champagne, favorite colors, where to live, types of homes, how to dress etc etc.. :hug:

And although this thread started out discussing the 2013 MKS unveiling and was hijacked/drifted into an MKZ discussion by some of the "usual suspect" Fusion/Milan/MKZ bashers, the completely redesigned/restyled 2013 MKZ will be unveiled soon and arriving next year. And word from the automotive professionals who have seen it is that it is beautiful, stunning and a "game changer". Inside, outside, powertrain and technology wise.

But again, at the very least, let's try to keep comparisons reality based.

Good luck. :cheers:

 

[fatabbot]

I know a lot of younger people that drive CTS's. 4 in my small office building alone. The lone MKZ driver is 70+. I also don't know why we're suddenly comparing the CTS-V, when the regular CTS makes the point sufficiently.

I know it's easy to touch a nerve around here, but that wasn't my aim. Simply saying that if Lincoln is looking for a resurgence, their current lineup is going to fail to deliver. However, if they have prime products waiting in the ranks, fantastic. Like it or not, however, they will not flourish if they mainly attract retirees as they currently do. We can argue back and forth all day long and some will call me a "basher", but sales figures don't lie.

 

[Canadian_LX]

A good healthy car thrashing is always a plus for a forum. Stimulates thought, gets minds working and helps to pass the time during the winter months. Local forums up in Canada always get abuzz with happenings in the winter time because everyone is depressed, people are short fused and love a little drama just to keep things interesting :lol:

The point I was making regarding your comment about Lincoln attracting retirees is that the only reason Caddy seems to suddenly have a switch to younger drivers was not because of their offerings (with the exception of RWD maybe) since the LSC MarkVIII was a RWD car with GOBS of power for its time. But no one wanted to drive one because it was an "old man" car. Caddies too were never a young mans car. However, as usual the media gets involved, rappers put them in videos and they get used in movies which suddenly makes them the next "tickle me elmo" of the automotive world. Perfect example is the low-rider scene, someone puts bags/hydros on a classic old man car for the first time and suddenly the land-yachts are back in style.

The argument that I and BBF were making for the comparo is that when you take a base model for both, the MKZ has more offerings for a cheaper price than the CTS - and of course, looks are looks and everyone has their own taste so that shouldn't really matter.

Put the MKZ in a music video or make ANY Lincoln car a show-piece in a movie and you have an instant winner. Has anyone seen the movie "The Lincoln Lawyer"? I can almost guarantee that the late 80's Town Cars just went up in value because more people now want the car. I sure do :lol:

 

[bbf2530]

[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=200983.msg4150432#msg4150432 date=1321757412]
I know a lot of younger people that drive CTS's. 4 in my small office building alone. The lone MKZ driver is 70+. I also don't know why we're suddenly comparing the CTS-V, when the regular CTS makes the point sufficiently.

I know it's easy to touch a nerve around here, but that wasn't my aim. Simply saying that if Lincoln is looking for a resurgence, their current lineup is going to fail to deliver. However, if they have prime products waiting in the ranks, fantastic. Like it or not, however, they will not flourish if they mainly attract retirees as they currently do. We can argue back and forth all day long and some will call me a "basher", but sales figures don't lie.
[/quote]

Hi fatabbot. :wavey: Don't worry my friend, while I only know you from this website, I do feel I know you better than that. This is only an Internet discussion and neither you nor anyone else has "hit a nerve" (well, not with me anyway). And again, I feel that would not be your intention anyway.

Like everyone else, I was only expressing my opinion. I was not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, which is specifically why I did not quote anyone (and yes, I realize you did not quote anyone just now either).

I was only pointing out the fact that comparing the MKZ and CTS-V (a comparison I did not initiate) was a bit off-base and that simply put, when comparable models are used, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and the standard equipment list falls in favor of the MKZ (which can be verified by checking out the Lincoln/Cadillac websites) . Also, while doing so, notice I did not trash the CTS at all. :hug:

On a side note, in my large neighborhood, there are three MKZ owners of which I am the oldest (53 now, but 48 when I purchase it to replace a Mustang GT as my daily driver). There are also two CTS owners and they are both 65+. Yes, just another worthless statistic that proves nothing, but I figured I would add it to the pile.

Again, not picking on anyone in particular (nor in fact anyone at all), just throwing my opinion in with the rest.

Good luck. :cheers:

 

[biggee72]

[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=200983.msg4150432#msg4150432 date=1321757412]
I know a lot of younger people that drive CTS's. 4 in my small office building alone. The lone MKZ driver is 70+. I also don't know why we're suddenly comparing the CTS-V, when the regular CTS makes the point sufficiently.

I know it's easy to touch a nerve around here, but that wasn't my aim. Simply saying that if Lincoln is looking for a resurgence, their current lineup is going to fail to deliver. However, if they have prime products waiting in the ranks, fantastic. Like it or not, however, they will not flourish if they mainly attract retirees as they currently do. We can argue back and forth all day long and some will call me a "basher", but sales figures don't lie.
[/quote]

I assumed the basher refrence was towards me...

 

[bbf2530]

[quote author=biggee72 link=topic=200983.msg4150487#msg4150487 date=1321790243]
[quote author=fatabbot link=topic=200983.msg4150432#msg4150432 date=1321757412]
I know a lot of younger people that drive CTS's. 4 in my small office building alone. The lone MKZ driver is 70+. I also don't know why we're suddenly comparing the CTS-V, when the regular CTS makes the point sufficiently.

I know it's easy to touch a nerve around here, but that wasn't my aim. Simply saying that if Lincoln is looking for a resurgence, their current lineup is going to fail to deliver. However, if they have prime products waiting in the ranks, fantastic. Like it or not, however, they will not flourish if they mainly attract retirees as they currently do. We can argue back and forth all day long and some will call me a "basher", but sales figures don't lie.
[/quote]

I assumed the basher refrence was towards me...
[/quote]

Hi biggee. :wavey: The "basher reference" was actually a plural "bashers reference" and was aimed at no single person, as I stated in my first reply and repeated to fatabbot,

For the sake of everyone involved, I am leaving out a long explanatory treatise and cutting it short there. :blah: :lmao:

Good luck. :cheers: