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Old 09-17-2009, 10:51 PM   #1
JustaGeek
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Default Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

I have noticed a much smoother engine operation while using the 89 octane vs 87 octane gasoline (87 is FORD recommended for the Fusion).

A discussion ensued in another thread following my impressions of improved performance, but I believe that my findings are important to share with the FFC members in a separate subject.

Apparently the E10 gasoline is prone to the water contamination and phase separation, and have only a maximum of 90 day expiration.

Here is a link to the website:

http://www.fueltestkit.com/gasoline_...hanol_E10.html

It is a sales pitch to sell the "Fuel test kit", but they seem pretty convinced about the shortcomings of the E10 fuel.

Any thoughts...?


Edit: more, about the "sub-octane" gasoline blends:

"In some market areas a sub-octane gasoline is available for ethanol blending. This sub-octanebasestock is usually 84 or 84.5 octane (R+M)/2. When ethanol is added the octane of the finishedgasoline ethanol blend is 87. This sub-octane grade can be blended with premium and ethanol toachieve midgrade and premium level products. An overview of the economic considerations for thevarious types of ethanol blends is provided in Section 9 of this report. In addition the sub-octaneproduct can also be blended with varying amounts of premium to make a full slate of the all hydrocar-bon gasoline offerings.The availability of sub-octane gasoline has expanded over the past few years. In fact sub-octaneblends and/or RBOB are used in at least parts of twelve states. A distinction should be made on useversus availability. In some areas the terminals may offer a sub-octane grade to which the purchasermay add ethanol. In other areas the product may be offered only as a finished blend (i.e. sub-octanealready blended with ethanol and sold as a finished product).Marketers of sub-octane and RBOB will not disclose sales figures because such information isconsidered proprietary. "


Link to the website: http://www.tpub.com/content/altfuels...8/47880042.htm
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

Here in Ontario 87 octane fuel may contain "up to" 10% ethanol, 89 octane "up to" 5% ethanol.

Frankly the Fusion ran like a bag of crap on 87 grade once ethanol started being added to the gas where I normally purchased it, not to mention markedly worse fuel economy.

When I switched to 91 octane with no ethanol in advance of installing my cold air intake and reflash, I noticed a marked improvement in how the car ran and better fuel economy numbers (I compared after the fourth 91 tank of gas to try and eliminate any "placebo effect&quot

That sold me, ethanol blended gas is for the birds, not my car :shock:

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Old 09-18-2009, 04:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

good stuff thanks!
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:03 AM   #4
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

I haven't come across any stations in VA that DON'T use at least some sort of blend. I haven't paid much attention to the 92/93 octane stuff, but everywhere around here has up to 10-15% ethanol.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

Hi guys. This subject has been debated many times in the past, and will be debated many times in the future, so I am not going to get involved in the discussion on either side.

What I will state is that the best course of action is always to follow the recommendations of the people who designed, engineered and manufactured our vehicles. So read the Owners Manual and follow the advice of Ford. They know better than any third party (including me).

Whatever each one of us decides to do, good luck.
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:23 AM   #6
JustaGeek
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

This subject has nothing to do with Ford, bbf2530.

Ford obviously cannot be resposible for the quality of gasoline at the pump.

I have experienced serious knocking/pinging applying the throttle from the complete stop.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:05 AM   #7
bbf2530
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

[quote author=JustaGeek link=topic=156411.msg3331558#msg3331558 date=1253334239]
This subject has nothing to do with Ford, bbf2530.

Ford obviously cannot be resposible for the quality of gasoline at the pump.

I have experienced serious knocking/pinging applying the throttle from the complete stop.
[/quote]

Hi justageek. First, with all due respect (and I mean that), I am quite capable of figuring out for myself what this subject has to do with. So considering the fact that Ford designed, engineered, manufactured and backs the Warranty for our vehicles, it certainly does have a lot to do with Ford.

Second, since my reply did not take a side in the debate or contradict you, not sure why you felt the need to incorrectly contradict my information. You certainly do not feel that you, me or a third party website know better than Ford concerning what is best for our cars, correct?

So as you can see by my reply (or maybe you missed it), I clearly stated that "I am not going to get involved in the discussion on either side". I am strictly relaying what Ford tells us to do with our vehicles. The vehicles they designed, engineered, manufactured and Warranty. My concern is what is best for me and my fellow forum members to do with our cars, not to make a point about ethanol in our fuel (for either side of the debate). So what Ford has to say about the subject is very important.

My opinion is that no one knows better than Ford what needs to be done with our cars. That includes you, me and third party websites. Therefore following Ford's recommendations is the best course of action.

That advice neither contradicted nor backed your opinion, or the opinion of anyone else who had replied in this thread (for you or against you).

It simply means what it says: Ford designed, engineered and manufactured our vehicles, so anything we put into it (including fuel) certainly has a lot to do with Ford.

And concerning your knocking/pinging problem, that is addressed in our Owners Manuals. If you have problem such as that, it is due to a bad gas fill-up or an engine management problem. Either way, the cure is not a higher octane fuel. It is a change in gas stations so that you do not get low quality fuel again, and/or a visit to the Dealer for service to correct the engine management problem. Simple and clear cut.

Notice, I am not taking any side in this ethanol/octane debate. I am simply telling people to do what Ford says concerning our cars, since I do not think I am smarter than the people who designed, engineered, manufacture and Warranty (repetitive, I know) my car. And I hope no one else in this forum thinks they are smarter than Ford, since that would be a hard theory to backup.

Or as Ford clearly states in the Owners Manual (copied and pasted directly from the Manual):
Fuel quality
If you are experiencing starting, rough idle or hesitation driveability
problems, try a different brand of unleaded gasoline. “Premium”
unleaded gasoline is not recommended for vehicles designed to use
“Regular” unleaded gasoline because it may cause these problems to
become more pronounced. If the problems persist, see your authorized
dealer.

Do not add aftermarket fuel additive products to your fuel tank. It
should not be necessary to add any aftermarket products to your fuel
tank if you continue to use high quality fuel of the recommended octane
rating. These products have not been approved for your engine and
could cause damage to the fuel system. Repairs to correct the effects of
using an aftermarket product in your fuel may not be covered by your
warranty.


Since none of us know better what to do with our cars than Ford, and my opinion is based strictly according to what Ford advises, my advice was correct.

I certainly hope this clears up any confusion concerning my reply.

Good luck.

PS - By the way, I will be in Pennsylvania this weekend. If I see you, I will buy you a beer or six!


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Old 09-19-2009, 01:46 AM   #8
09SilverSEv6
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

WOW, you guy's read any good novels lately? (thats a joke BBF

I don't want to enter such a heated debate about gas and ethanol and what not. But I do have something to say, even if it is just a statement of ONE experience and WHAT I KNOW TO BE FACTUAL AS I HAVE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES, and ears.

My Fathers 08 F150 4x4 was knocking pretty good. He was filling up at Costco because it was cheaper. For whatever reason, (I don't care the reason, BBF) his gas cap did not suggest BP gasoline, like mine does. (he also doesn't sit around reading and memorizing the owners manual either)
Once he found out Ford was recommending BP gasoline, he switched.

Guess What....... NO MORE KNOCK.

Thats all I have to say. I'm not saying that BP is god of all that is oil, I could give two shits. I always hated BP because they always charge more for EVERYTHING.

You choose what you want to put in the tank.
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Old 09-19-2009, 02:02 AM   #9
bbf2530
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

[quote author=09SilverSEv6 link=topic=156411.msg3331615#msg3331615 date=1253339216]
WOW, you guy's read any good novels lately? (thats a joke BBF

I don't want to enter such a heated debate about gas and ethanol and what not. But I do have something to say, even if it is just a statement of ONE experience and WHAT I KNOW TO BE FACTUAL AS I HAVE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES, and ears.

My Fathers 08 F150 4x4 was knocking pretty good. He was filling up at Costco because it was cheaper. For whatever reason, (I don't care the reason, BBF) his gas cap did not suggest BP gasoline, like mine does. (he also doesn't sit around reading and memorizing the owners manual either)
Once he found out Ford was recommending BP gasoline, he switched.

Guess What....... NO MORE KNOCK.

Thats all I have to say. I'm not saying that BP is god of all that is oil, I could give two shits. I always hated BP because they always charge more for EVERYTHING.

You choose what you want to put in the tank.
[/quote]

Hi 09SilverSE. I get the joke, good buddy! :lmao: I hope you were not worried that I would be offended by your reply. Heck, if I insulted easily, I would have quit this forum and taken up shuffleboard a long time ago!

Actually, your fathers experience backs up what I was trying to state.

As you stated, your fathers problem was bad gas at Costco (for whatever reason). When he switched to another name brand (in this case BP), his problem went away. So the cure was not a higher octane, it was a different (and major name) brand that happened to also be of better quality. Exactly what Ford recommends in the case of knocking/pinging/drive-ability problems.

Whether this directly applies to what we are talking about, who knows? It just shows that bad gas is out there. None of us are arguing that fact (well, I am not anyway).

However, filling with a higher octane/premium fuel is not the solution. Purchasing higher quality, name brand fuel is. Ford makes this very clear in our Owners Manuals.

This is what Ford recommends if we have knocking/pinging etc. Again, a direct quote: "If you are experiencing starting, rough idle or hesitation driveability problems, try a different brand of unleaded gasoline. “Premium” unleaded gasoline is not recommended for vehicles designed to use “Regular” unleaded gasoline because it may cause these problems to become more pronounced. If the problems persist, see your authorized
dealer."


I am not even saying that justageek is wrong concerning ethanol/octane etc. I am simply not taking a side other than to say that we should follow Ford's recommendations concerning our cars.

Of course, I do not mean we have to follow the "BP fuel" recommendation. That is simply a marketing strategy.

Again, hope this clears up any confusion concerning the information I supplied.

Good luck.

PS - I am in no way intelligent enough to memorize the Owners Manual. Hell, I forget my own address as I get older. I simply know how to research information, which sometimes is better than memorizing stuff at my advanced age!

PPS - And in case anyone was wondering, my opinion is not based solely on what Owners Manuals state, it is also based on many years of education, life experience and common sense.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:30 AM   #10
JustaGeek
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Default Re: Info about drop in octane level in Gasoline w/ 10% ethanol

Hi bbf2230,

There is a line in your reply that confirms my suspicions:

"If you have problem such as that, it is due to a bad gas fill-up or an engine management problem."

Again, I certainly appreciate your input, but it would be hard for Ford to say "do not use the 87 gas, because it might be bad due to water content or phase separation". I have 2 Ford vehicles (Fusion and Taurus), and both experienced problems. In both cases I suspected bad gas, and that's what it probably was.

The closest BP station is about 15 miles away, so it is not an option for me. I usually fill-up at Sunoco and Exxon, and try to avoid generic gas.

Hey, I might take you up on that beer offer LOL. I would certainly enjoy our conversation, considering your vast knowledge of automobiles.

Thanks!

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